Christian Versus Atheist

where's the agnositic who's too shit scared to take a stand either way? ;-)

I smite all of thee.

Sorry I don't have time to read everything on your site to see what it's ALL about. However, you're obviously articulate, creative and uh, interesting, so I'll certainly keep reading as time allows.

Why do call me a liar? Call it what you will - divine intervention, scientifically unexplainable events, or miracles - and occasionally, an error in the first place, miracles happen. I have no need to convince you, I am just responding because no one likes to be called a liar.

Why is it that miracles don't make the news?
Oh well, that's another topic entirely.

As for statistical probability, I don't think that would explain the nearly impossible event of a major lottery winner cashing in a second time (Eugene Angelo, MSNBC.com).

Crispy Christ on a cracker I thought I was gonna make it after I survived being crucified. I thought God was really turning me into a ninja-like ass-kicking Christian for a minute, oh well.

Don't know why he was such a bitter atheist. I mean really, who goes and crucifies people? Seemed more like a :a) satanist, or b) an atheist who needs to get laid.

Cute game though.

bloglady said ...
Why do call me a liar? Call it what you will - divine intervention, scientifically unexplainable events, or miracles - and occasionally, an error in the first place, miracles happen. I have no need to convince you, I am just responding because no one likes to be called a liar.

Nobody called you a liar. You're seeing something that isn't there. I said you were wrong but at no point accused you of outright lying.

bloglady said ...
As for statistical probability, I don't think that would explain the nearly impossible event of a major lottery winner cashing in a second time (Eugene Angelo, MSNBC.com)

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. This is exactly what statistical probability explains. Let me try to explain:

Persons A, B, and C enter a lottery where the chances of either of them winning in a given week is 1 in a million.

Scenario 1. On the first week Person A wins. Nothing amazing here. There was a chance it would happen and it did.

In week 2 Person A wins again. What are the incredible odds of person A winning in week 2? 1 in a million, the same as in week 1. Why? Because winning in a second week is not affected by winning in a first. There's no relationship at all. There is nothing affecting the odds based on previously winning or not.

Now, you might think: ah, but what are the odds of Person A winning in week 1 and week 2? Let's call that 1 in a million million. Big odds. Must be a miracle? No. Let's carry on ...

Scenario 2. In week 1 Person B wins. Now, in week 2 Person C wins. The odds of each person winning in each individual week is 1 in a million. We've seen that. But what are the odds that Person B would win in week 1 and Person C would win in week 2? Why that's 1 in a million million! Same odds as our apparent miracle and yet nobody cares? Why?

Here's why. In scenario 1 it looks special. Humans see patterns and they think "ooh, mystical force at work!". But despite the looks it's just random chance and the same chance as two different specific people winning in each week as in Scenario 2.

Another quick example. Lottery numbers are drawn and come up with:

2,17,32,5,19,6

Big deal, right?

Now they're drawn again and they come up with:

1,2,3,4,5,6

Wow! Must be God! Or is it?

Do you want the know what the odds of the second set of numbers being drawn are?

Exactly the same as the first set. Exactly the same. Not slightly less chance. Exactly the same. But the second set gets people talking because ... it looks special.

But it's not special at all. The human brain is great at identifying patterns and assigning beliefs and symbols to them and thoughts around them. It's just that once you actually know what's going on to create the pattern you can take away the belief and replace it with understanding.

In the same way when you see a "miracle" you're assigning a mystical solution to something you just don't understand but have identified a pattern with. Someone prayed, someone got better - cause and effect: it's a miracle. Sure, unless you check and see that the "miracle" coincided with a new batch of drugs, an environmental change, etc. It could be anything. You have to know what went on. You can't take other people's words for it either.

To sum up:

I've demonstrated that your miracles of cures and lottery winnings can be explained using mathematics, statistics, and an understanding of pattern recognition in the human brain.

You will probably still maintain that an invisible spirit, apparently benevolent, goes around altering lottery balls to favour one man somewhere while letting millions of children die around the world in poverty, war, and disease.

Doesn't that strike you as even the slightest bit absurd? Just a smidgeon?

Anyway ...

bloglady said ...
you're obviously articulate, creative and uh, interesting, so I'll certainly keep reading as time allows

Awesome!

This is awesome, you creative sod.

Creative not creationist.

This is a fine game, but what of Agnostics, or for that matter, Nihilists?

Dale, .45: Agnostics were defeated in round 1 by the Freemasons. Arguments weren't the deciding factor, though. The masons knew people who knew people and, well, things were arranged and ...

Claire: Thankyou.

No, no no. I will NOT admit to hitting the back button to change my answers.

Darn - skewered!

Kinda hard to play a game between two crazies, anyway.

I hate these games (in a

Thanks for the statistical info on lotteries, it was quite interesting. Point taken. However, I never claimed that the man who won twice experienced a miracle. I was simply comparing two rare events, a two time lottery winner with an alleged miracle - neither of which can be explained with a sound scientific explanation other than applying statistical odds (which doesn't explain the good luck of one fellow as opposed to another's luck), as you so aptly proved.

Human beings developed their ability for abstract thought as a matter of survival. (The caveman understands that the bison he draws on the wall of the cave represents the actual bison in the field.) Because humans are not as strong as other predators, abstract thought provided them with the edge needed to organize and survive. The same need, the need not to die, begot us our sense of agency. (It may only be the wind that rustles the leaves of the tree, but it's better for survival to assume that it was a tiger.) As a matter of fact, evolution has produced a hyper-developed sense of agency in humans to ensure survival in some really harsh environments. Our sense of agency is so strong that if you reread the previous sentence you might notice that while writing it, I was subconsciously verging on insinuating that evolution itself is an agent. (This is nonsense, of course. Nature has no agency.) Indeed, the above example of almost ascribing agency to evolution is a microcosm of the process of how we arrived at the idea of deities who are actively involved in our lives. The combination of agency with abstract thought produces something unique to homo-sapiens. (It would be safe to say that a sense of agency preceded the capacity for abstract thought. After all, animals have the former but not the latter. But it is of no relevance which came first. What matters is what happens when you combine the two.) Abstract thought PLUS sense of agency = invention of divinity. Life made god, not the other way around.

Bloglady you are ignoring Marks central point: you are seeing a pattern and ascribing agency where there is none. Just because someTHING happened does not mean that someONE made it happen. Cause and affect do not = agency.

Bloglady: you may be able to sell Frustration online. Have you considered this as a way to supplement your income?

bloglady said ...
I was simply comparing two rare events, a two time lottery winner with an alleged miracle - neither of which can be explained with a sound scientific explanation other than applying statistical odds (which doesn't explain the good luck of one fellow as opposed to another's luck), as you so aptly proved.

neither of which can be explained with a sound scientific explanation other than applying statistical odds

This makes no sense. You're saying "neither of these things can be explained scientifically, except for the one that can be explained scientifically". Or: "I have four arms, except for the two that aren't arms at all and are, in fact, legs, but other than that, yes, I definitely am a four-legged person only without four legs".

which doesn't explain the good luck of one fellow as opposed to another's luck

Argggghhhhh! Yes it does. It does explain. It explains it through science. Probability. Statistics. Explanation. It explains luck as being the result of statistical probability uninfluenced by anything other than science. The way lottery balls are drawn could be explained and predicted with total accuracy if you could model everything involved: imperfections on the balls, weight, air density, humidity, gravitational force. Science has answers; not all of them just yet, but it's working on it. Religion has no answers, is stagnant, and happy to remain that way. Religion's answer of "God" could equally be "Frog". In fact, replace God with Frog everywhere in the Bible and it probably still makes as much sense and is just as completely untestable, unproveable, and, sadly, still believable by those who just won't stop and think about things for a moment.

Incidentally, you never answered my question:

me said ...
I've demonstrated that your miracles of cures and lottery winnings can be explained using mathematics, statistics, and an understanding of pattern recognition in the human brain.

You will probably still maintain that an invisible spirit, apparently benevolent, goes around altering lottery balls to favour one man somewhere while letting millions of children die around the world in poverty, war, and disease.

Doesn't that strike you as even the slightest bit absurd? Just a smidgeon?

Christian Said:

"Prayer does work. It comforts the christian when he's clueless. It's an utterly selfish thing to do; that brilliantly has the excuse of being the opposite. Depending on your view, the answer will be yes or no. Yes, if it comforts you in any way to practice it. No, if you look at the external results.

BTW: My parents gave me my name. I stick with it out of honour to them; not because it fits."

Yeah... me too.

This is, more or less, the epitome of every awesome thing that ever existed.

Ever.

This simulation was apparenlt created by an atheist who believes all believers in Christ are idiots and don't know when they are being made fun of by some lonely person stuck in a basement with no life and no happiness whose only goal is to try and make everyone else feel bad just as they do.

Basement?

Oh, what I'd give for a nice basement. Or even just a cellar; you know, somewhere to store the wine or humourless Christians etc.

christains are not humourless i do in fact think its funny you would lie to stick a person in a basement and still feel you are phycologally superior

Beth:

Christians, not christains.
I, not i.
It's, not its.
Pharmaceutically, psychotropically, or possibly pie-logically, not phycologally.

Superior? Intellectually-speaking, without a shadow of a doubt.

@Beth: pwnt, biatch.

That was funny :)

You're a loser

Is this supposed to be funny or serious?

If you have to ask then you've failed at life already. Please try again.

Oh and "Curt and Randy" hahahaha. Sorry. Just seen your "website" and rightwing republican redneck "best friends" with that piece of crap referring to anything here or elsewhere on the web as losery is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. Actually, 1234 if you're after funny then you should go there.

All things work for good for those who love the lord
Romans 8:28

p.s. that "Do you Christians not pray for a cure to cancer" all of the awnsers are wrong. try to find a good response to that bible verse

if anyone does catch me at 'thwaitsy@gmail.com'

this is to francis scudellari
tell me whats fun about athiesm?
we christians have salvation
jesus is going to come and take the people that stayed faithfull to him.
tell me, how is christianity not fun? answer that question
jesus died for you so live for him

I had a go of your little challenge and firstly would like to point out that you have represented the majority of Christians well. This is sad to say as I am a Christian who believes the masses of Christianity do not understand the basic answers to questions such as why does God not heal people of Cancer. So if most Christians don't even know, how can we expect atheists who are assessing what we believe to know either. But let me shed a little light on the matter.

Firstly I would like to point out that Jesus never said that he was going to abolish all pain and suffering while he was on earth. No instead he too died and suffered so how can we expect anything different. But he did perform miracles while he was alive to show that he does hold the power of sickness and death. So today we live in a time after Christ which theologically could be described as the 'now but not yet'. The 'now' is the fact that Jesus came into this world bring with him the kingdom of God, and all who put their trust in Him will enter into that kingdom, but while we live we are still subject to the functions of this world, we will get sick and we will die. The not yet though is our hope that one day Jesus will return and then the systems of this would will no longer apply and we will be free from sickness and death.

So I concluded by saying the Bible clearly shows that all people will become sick and die and to think other wise is only superstitious but where you say God is cruel because he could stop this I say He is loving because I can see the eternal picture that in time I will be restored and will not be plagued but sickness and death in the time to come.

i like it when people fight over me, makes me feel special.

I have a question for all the athiest!? If you do not belive in god and want nothing to do with him why do you spend so much time argueing with christians about his existence?

To enlighten. To educate. To teach. To better.

I'm afraid you can't use the "well, if you don't believe in it why do you spend so much time talking about it to those of us morons who do?" argument unless you can first demonstrate that the religion you follow springs up naturally and without any outside interference in each and every follower. You're not born a believer in any of the hundreds of different and conflicting religions and your particular flavour didn't suddenly spread without somebody somewhere talking about it to somebody else who didn't believe it. Children do not believe in any particular space fairy until they're told about them. Why don't we make a deal? Atheists won't talk about idiotic beliefs in religion to the religious so long as the religious don't ever speak about their religion to anyone else not already a believer too, extending to - especially - offspring. Can't say fairer than that!

Actually, i hate to break it to many of you. Atheism is in fact a religion. It's a set of beliefs and corresponding behavior that shapes your interaction with divine things. What is in so many ways, an obvious truth (the reality of God), you simply choose to ignore.

The assumption that something that cant be proven with human made science kit doesn't exist...now that's pretty daft. Very few of the world's greatest truths cant be proven in a lab. I find it almost funny that many atheists openly admit to Jesus being (at least) one of the greatest men in history...yet simultaneously consider him to have been completely delusional!

It's also (almost) amusing how atheists also somehow consider themselves as somehow more 'intellectually gifted' than the average joe. Ha!

Max: thanks for popping by and adding some religious gibberish; I was just thinking that this page didn't quite have enough religious gibberish. Let's address a few points:

Atheism is a religion? No it's not. A lack of a set of beliefs is not a set of beliefs. I know I'm on shaky ground trying to interject logic to a religious nutjob and wasting my time but let's try this example: my cat is a cat and I am not a cat. Because I am not a cat I am not a cat. You might argue that being not a cat makes me some sort of cat - the not a cat sort of cat - but in actuality I still remain not a cat at all. Same thing with atheism. It's not a belief; it's not a religion. Although you may want protection for your delusions from those who can argue so well against your insanity by trying to include them as somehow equal but inferior to you, the fact is that you're an imbecile. Okay? Cool.

The phrase "obvious truth" is a wonderful argument and I'll make sure to use it myself when I've nothing to support my statements. Your DNA discovered at the scene of a crime? Don't worry! Sorry officer, but the obvious truth is that someone else did it. What camera that recorded everything? Well, the obvious truth is that someone tinkered with it. My confession a few minutes ago? The obvious truth is that I was possessed by fairies. Fairies don't exist? The obvious truth is that they do. And so on. Wonderful. Remind me not to debate you. Without a hammer.

Many atheists openly admit to Jesus being one of the greatest men in history? Really? Can you name, ooh, let's say, a handful of these many atheists? Since I'm not aware of any and learning things is something I like. I know that's asking for evidence to back up your claim and I know you're not big on that but, perhaps, after all we've been through...? Personally, I think the idea of Jesus was admirable, if misguided and no longer relevant; as to his existence though... I'll take a historical record in lieu of his body as supporting evidence (eek! Sorry about the 'e' word again) and, sadly, there's none. Historians (and there were a great many) mention Pilate and the census that took place and various other things that apparently occurred at the time but, strangely (or not really, if you think about it (thinking huh? What a novelty!)) the miracle man who heals the sick and lame gets overlooked? How very odd! I'm just sure you know why that was though. Let me guess? Two shooters on a grassy knoll in Area 51 called Elvis dressed in black and erased the records. It's an, er, obvious truth of course. What other possible explanation could there be?

I'll let you get back to colouring in now.

This comment sponsored by Insult-A-Twit.

wow, this is truely a stupid little "game"

you claim to have knowledge, reason, and thought...and yet you belittle innocent people and like to shove YOUR beliefs down their throats. just like the people you've come to hate.

hahah, i bet you like to bring up shit like the crusades, too. yeah, blaming people today for something that happened hundreds of years ago that doesn't even have to do with the people you're arguing. so they were christians? yeah, well stalin was an atheist, and look at all the religious people he killed. but let me guess, thats' different, right? cos he had a good reason? yeah, i bet you're "logic" would tell you that.

hahaah, i laugh at you, you've become so much like the people you've come to hate! i bet you find it nice and comforting to stay in your little circle of "thought", i bet that the fear and uncertainty inside you compells you to stick to your paradigm and act like a complete dick to people you don't know...but it seems that you like to take the good ole' fashion "anonymous" route. yes, it is MUCH safer to be behind a computer screen, isn't it? i mean, at least then you can just refuse to pay attention to any arguments that could trump yours. awwww, so callow. it seems that you can't grasp the concept of the BELEIF in atheism. since, oh, i dunno...SCIENCE DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T A GOD. but hey, it must be nice to stick to a a very black and white, materialistic and frigid paradigm. as for christianity...well, you MUST feel some sort of threat if you have to go about attacking christians on the internet. oh yeah, and all those blanket statements and generalizations are really something! i mean, they MUST be true, right? christians aren't people, are they? no, they gotta be like...like, ohhh, rats! hmmmm, ring a bell? i can think of a couple of dictators that sat right on top of their high horse, polluting the air around them with their arrogance, planning out atrocities for a "good cause"

nice. way to contradict yourself.
-darien.

i think there needs to be more answer alternatives. atheist fuckwits.

this christian vs atheist game, has nothing whatsoever what it will be like if you faced a true atheist, it has some key facts but the answers which you are given is really irrational and make no sense to what you could really say, this is terrible ways to practice, if you want to really practice on bringing an atheist to christ, for one, dont talk to them about christ that will just draw a person away, going by your actions is what will make people wonder and really bring someone to the lord, and christianity is not religious james 1-26 says for any man who is religious but does not have a tight reign on his tongue is vain, so therefore, god is against religion for it is man made. And another thing, those who dont believe in christ, look around you, this year of 2010, theres been more earthquakes ever in history, 90 million miles out of the earth, there is a huge asteroid that looks like the star of david and is shaped like a cross, which is headed this way according to astrologers, theres more wars, more disesase, more famines, more weather changes, global warming is coming to place, its all signs, whether you believe or not is your choice, but i tell you this, if it is to be true, i have everything to gain, if it's not, i had nothing to lose in the first place, because death i will no nothing, but i know better than to think that we will rot in the ground afterwards, we didnt come from monkeys or just some sort of BANG, if it was a big bang, god did it because its the only way possible, i do respect science, but they go by guesses and chance, so i dis-agree with what many say on the bible, unless you read the bible yourself, you will never know the truth. and the real truth comes from god, those who dont believe, you want to see god or better yet hear him, why should he come to those who hate him? although he's right next to you, but you refuse him, and spit in his face, but yet he still loves you unconditionally.

Mark: you of so little faith the bible even states of people just as you, you are the perfect example of the end of age, man will be more selfless and into themselves then god, you want proof, look around you, everything happening is signs of the bible, every sunday and some random weekday we now have major earthquakes in non-godly areas, the bible clearly states in matthew 24: 4-14 states the end of age, you can say its always happened throughout history but i tell you this, never in history of this year has there ever been so much destruction and havoc then ever before, many anti-christ have taken reign, many more diseases, many more wars, but yet, you are so foolish to blame the most high god, he tells us all to prepare for death, the lord never said he was going to take away all suffering, the times of destruction go back to adam and eve, god gave them the choice to do good or do wrong, just as we are today, if god knew you were evil, he would never create you for god can not be near those who are evil, and even those who are good, without the son within you and the holy spirit you can not enter the gates of the kingdon of heaven just because you are "good" you deny christ, and another thing, god never made evil, satan did, when satan was cast out of heaven only then did the beginning of evil begin. We are now at the times of soddom and gommorah and the days of noah, you of the many i pray for. Instead of using Logic Mark, pay attention to this world of which you are so blindly living in, everything that you see is taking place within the bible, god's words are my proof he exist, and no matter what you do, you will never be able to backfire the words of god, for you know nothing of him and until you do, from dust you were created and dust you shall return. UNLESS you repent for your wrongs and give your life to the lord Jesus Christ, until you stop being so blind of the world, you are flesh and nothing more. Who are you to ask god for proof? why should god listen to those who refuse him and deny him and belittle him? God has every right to punish those who are against him, there are no half and halfs you are for him or you are against him, god does is a merciful god, but as he watches over you now, he only can continue to stand besides you and knock on your hollow head to let him in your heart. God is a loving god, for he has not yet given up on you nor will he ever, but you are the one who give up on him.

god is real

god is real

God can not exist, because something would have to had come from nothing. If God can come from nothing, anything can come from nothing. God is unnecessary, and your god was invented by humans with no understanding of the world around them, simply as a device to trick the stupid ones into giving the smart ones a share of their crops, so their sky wizard would let their crops grow. Religions have existed since the dawn of man, and it's just the result of a vestigial Darwinian drive not to kill yourself as soon as you understand that it all counts for nothing and you just rot in the ground.